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The Pe:p show

YouTube show by Peep Laja where he discusses optimizing life and business.

How can you make Facebook Advertising work for B2B? I sat down with Curt Maly, Facebook Advertising Expert @ Black Box Social Media, and he says: it is all relationship building. Instead of just asking people to buy your stuff, we want to engage them with relevant, high-quality content in the way they want to learn. The key is leaning into the Facebook algorithm to deliver the right content at the right time.


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How do you become a great copywriter? Do you blindly follow copywriting best practices and what people say online? I scoured the internet to find 12 things people say you must do and ran them past my friend, Momoko Price one of the best conversion copywriters out there. You’ll be surprised to hear what she says.


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Should you redesign your website? Probably not. In this episode, Peep discusses reasons why people choose to redesign websites and how these reasons usually cause the project to FAIL or can fail due to poor management. Don’t think radical redesign, think evolution.


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Do you get several messages a day from customers asking for a discount or coupon code? You probably also have a bunch of abandoned carts In this episode, Peep discusses how to reduce support requests to your customer success team and abandoned carts, just by removing the coupon code field from the checkout page. Coupons are still very important. Peep also discusses how you can still use coupon codes for special cases.

Is shopping cart abandonment an issue? A lot of people on support asking for discounts?

There is a quick and easy solution to this.
Remove coupon code fields from your checkout. We have this issue at CXL institute where every single day people were complaining on our support live chat that hey can

you give me a discount can you give me a coupon like you know I
want to buy something but I want a coupon and we say oh we don't do this. We always say no we don't do discounts the like well but you have a coupon code. Like what. Yeah about like this. You know I have a different way of using it then but like people see a coupon code feel and there is some thinking holy shit there's a coupon code somewhere out there. I'm not getting the best possible deal. I must go and google the coupon code. Now what happens is that while a) you can plant the coupon for yourself and that's it's a very common tactic and you should do it as well if you if you have a coupon code field so place it somewhere else if the google your coupon you want them to find something.

Five bucks offer five percent off but some need to be a lot at
least they feel satisfied. Yes cheating you know the system and beating the man. Like I got the coupon code. Two: what happens is that they don't find your coupon they find your competitors copy your competitors Mark. And is it advertising maybe doing PPC ads or they have an SEO or page that is ranking for a keyword your brand plus coupon or you can do that to your competitors so they find a competitor's coupon selling a similar or exactly the same product and they go buy from the competitor or they don't find a coupon and then they're angry and they're just you know and then the phone rings and their child is crying and their husband is calling and to forget about you and move on with the life and then come back.

So you just want to avoid this to begin with.
So basically you want to remove the coupon code field from the checkout page sometimes you probably want to or need to use So there are two great alternatives here. coupon code. A have a secret you URL where that maybe a query string that opens up the coupon Goldfield in your checkout page or you do these email coupon codes. Basically you send out the promo to e-mail list and if you if you click on the link in your email code is automatically applied already.

They don't need to type anything in it just automatically applied
to your cart. Yeah. So those are the two great ways to you know still be able to use coupon codes. So get rid of the field gets rid of the terrible chads reduce your cart to ban them and then live happy ever after.

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How do you achieve growth through conversion optimization? You need high-quality research and experimentation. In this episode, Peep discusses why research is critical to understand the problems on the website and why you need to develop multiple hypotheses in order to find the right solution.

Speaker 1: Growth through optimization is research plus experimentation and the research bit is 80 percent of the results.

How can you grow your company through conversion optimization?
There are two things that go into it. One is you need to figure out what are the actual problems people are having with your website. So that part we call research. There's qualitative research talking to a target users you know after they've bought something while they're using your side the checking into usability it's all the qualitative bits. And then there's the quantitative bits. Digital Analytics quantified data like how many people did what where and qualitative answers why.

So understanding this problem set.
Understanding what people are doing and understand what are the problems and why these problems are problems to begin with helps us formulate our hypothesis. So once we understand the problem we can now formulate a hypothesis like if we would change x y z to ABC we would expect this behavior to change and as a result we see this

Now even if we understand what the problem is we do know what

the optimal solution is.
So let me give you an example. So a couple of years ago I was doing conversion research for an They were selling pool parts you know like outdoor pools and

e-commerce site.

there's various parts that go into it.
So the number one reason that people didn't buy a pool or sorry didn't buy parts for their pool was that they weren't sure

whether the parts they were looking at fit their pool.
That's the problem and I think like 40 percent of people that we surveyed that didn't go through with the purchase stated that that's the number one reason. That's a big problem. But now we understood Aha it's a big aha moment for us. This is the reason they're not buying more because they're not sure whether it fits their pool logic right. But what is the solution. Well in this case there is no obvious idea sometimes there might be an obvious idea like I can't read your fonts which make them bigger obvious but in most cases there are no obvious answers and hence you need to come up with multiple good hypotheses for solutions as many as you can.

And ideally all the ideas are very different from each other.
And now you need to do experimentation to basically A B test A B and test. Which of these ideas for a solution actually works or works the best because some idea might work but some of that is another idea that works even better. It never ends. What also often happens is like the first and the most obvious idea for a solution is not the best one the seventh the eighth idea is actually the one that is that is the best.

So what I like to I like to do is like gather around people

like a cross-functional group.
So we have designers you X people engineers customer

success people marketing people all together debating or not
debating but like discussing what could be the best idea for a solution where essentially we're brainstorming and we get a variety of ideas and some and then then we'll score these hypotheses we like to use the P Excel framework Google it to then ranked ideas because we can if we come up with nine ideas for a solution we can really run a Navy test with nine

In most cases you don't have enough traffic for that and then hence you need to prioritize which which idea to test first second and so on and so forth. So as I said growth through optimization is research plus experimentation and the research bit is 80 percent of the results. If your research is not done or is done sloppily what you experiment with does not matter because most mostly you'll be experimenting with stupid ideas that will make no difference.

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Should you follow a list of best practices when working on a conversion optimization project? Maybe. Best practices in the conversion optimization world get a bad rap, but it doesn’t mean they are wrong. In this episode, Peep discusses why following some best practices at the beginning of a project, is actually a good thing. If you don’t have enough data, best practices can at least give you somewhere to start.

Should you use best practices to optimize your website? There is a best practice for everything really. There is a best practice for homepage there's a best practice for designing a checkout page e-commerce product page you know SaaS pricing page you name it. Actually there are five best practices for every type of page out there. If you google enough. So should you use them? The answer is probably yes. The thing is that best practices is your first hypothesis. You're building your new pricing page and you don't know what you know.

You have no data of your own.
You start with following the best practice you'll like your competitor is your first prototype so to speak. And the best practice is a synthesis of what has worked for a number of companies in the past. There is no guarantee that any of that stuff will work for you but it's the best chance you got to ship something that that might have a chance of working right out of the gate. Now of course best practices is not optimization in the conversion optimization world.

Best practices off the laugh that are made fun of and then
and for good reason often. But this practice is to have a great place so when you're building a first version of anything you're designing your first home page etc. you start with the best practice and then you optimize from there. So best practice is where you start not where you end up.

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Do you have all the data but it’s siloed in various marketing tools? How do you connect, pipe, and automate data transforms to get value out of your data and why? In this interview, Peep sits down with Dan McGaw, CMO @ EffinAmazing. Dan breaks down marketing automation tools, customer data platforms, and what you can do to plan and organize your marketing tech stack and data pipeline.

what's the difference between CDI and CDP this is kind of becoming a blurred line because marketing automation tools are now saying well I'm a CDP because I store your customer data and I could show you the life-long of them and I can send that somewhere else but isn't that really a CDP is that really a marketing automation tool hey guys I'm here with Dan McCall from effin

amazing and then here is an expert at building and optimizing marketing tech
stacks marketing tech stacks are a problem for marketers because there's a huge amount of data silo vacation it's like you have your email marketing tool but it doesn't talk to CRM so if you want to email people who bought these two products you often can't do that or they're separate from digital analytics where I want to email people that bought these two products but not this one and read this blog post and after marketers are not able to do this so how do you solve all that yeah so it's it's definitely really really difficult but I mean it's fun enough when you say this whole kind of explanation there's some tools that come to mind I think you're probably familiar with one of the most popular ones will just hold that i/o Sohal which is like kind of the traditional customer data platform so you have customer data infrastructure and all of these different ways that you can pass data through different tools but I'd have to say the most popular one is zapier right like if you're not using zapier then I mean you kind of live on an island I guess and I call it zapier it's not zapier to me it's zap-zap you I'm calling it zapier I don't care I'm

putting my flag in the ground on that one but zapier is by far one of my
favorite ways to automate everything and keep him up to date but the whole would be the other tool that I would use but that's a bigger picture less integrations okay what other CDP's or similar tools could you use to set up

email CRM and all these other tools to make them talk to each other yeah
segment is really popular segment com is really good they have the ability to pass the data between a lot of different tools and be able to use them as sources and destinations I really like segments we're a solutions partner of theirs we recently were introduced to Mehta router we ever heard a meta router Mehta routers very much similar they're a little bit younger so they're a lot cheaper right now and they give you much more volume with passing data between tools so between those two they're known as what's a CDI customer data infrastructure so they're all about taking data from one tool setting it to another they just require you to basically push that data compared to zapier where you can kind of go fetch data and pull it around so just a little bit different what's different what's the difference between CDI and CTP yeah a great question so the CDP actually customer data platform stores customer data so this is kind of becoming a blurred line because marketing automation tools are now saying well I'm a CDP because I store your customer data and I can show you the life lifelong of them and I can send that somewhere else but is that really a CDP is that really a marketing automation tool so the domain difference between CDI and CDP CD is don't store that is pipe CDP's actually store the data about the customer right yeah I mean we love CDP for the you know single source of truth type of type of stuff so everything sits together is there is so is there any any any other way to do this single source

of true type of stuff or you have to use the CDP yeah the CDP is really becoming
more popular but what we really have started to learn is that it's not only about having one central location of data it's about making sure that data is constantly pushing from all of these different tools to keep all these different tools up-to-date because your marketing automation tool if it's not your CDP you're constantly having a push data to it so as data gets updated in Salesforce you need to push that data from Salesforce to a CDP the CDP hopefully pushes it somewhere else or you have a different way of creating a data pipeline which they think is for marketers it's kind of a not known and not really familiar but really the data pipeline is what keeps all these things going and the CDP just becomes a big axle in that that pipeline so who is responsible for all this should it be the marketer or the engineer yeah definitely in between so a lot of organizations have a marketing operations person and that's typically the person who does this so it's usually owned by marketing operations or sales operations I don't recommend it to be owned by engineering just because they don't think about hey this is their first name they think about like this is a user ID okay I have a random hash they're users the marketer is going to think about this as a customer so it's a little bit separate put marketers at the same time don't think about the technical ability of attaching a user to an ID number and then having that manage throughout different systems so hopefully there's a marketing operations person in the middle that can help translate for both of them and that's also what a lot of companies hire us for is to figure out what are their operations of all this data how do we manage the customer journey and things like that and some marketing operations in your definition is something something like growth engineer I've seen that title of being

thrown around yeah growth engineer would definitely
fall into that classification however the growth engineer is much more focused typically on taking demand generation efforts and then getting that to turn into some sort of viral loop or something like that which is much more the product the marketing operations people are less focused on the viral loop in many cases that's not their their objective their objective is how do I store all this information about a user or a customer and then make it so we can report upon that later so there really operations of marketing a lot of times you see these people building emails as well doing more operationally focused tasks but they're not the growth engineer because their job is not measured just upon growth of new users right so that's one

thing that typically you see marketing operations at larger companies where
this is a primary focus so in smaller companies usually this is done by marketing and marketing is asking engineering to do something about it and that's where it can be a little difficult to get things done right right right so talking about difficult what are the typical things that can go wrong when somebody's starting to you know I call this kind of data integration things yeah the first thing we see everybody forget about is planning they just start going out and doing it so a thing that I don't think a lot of marketers think about is taxonomy or schema and those words are kind of synonyms of each other taxonomy and schema are like just what we're gonna call things so yes first name is really easy company is really easy title is really easy but when you start getting into attributes about like how did somebody at C Excel go through a course did they enroll or did they register do they start there's different names that are used these all have to match between all the systems and that's where we really see a lot of mistakes happen as you might be familiar with UTM do our other product that's all about data governance and making it so that people can store UTM is the same way every time so they can report upon it later you have that same problem in the stack we're marketing automation calls it a registered and then you have this the CRM that's calling it enrolled and if those two things don't line up the data it actually doesn't map over very easily so you have to think about that especially if the stack is bigger than bigger if you want more interviews like this subscribe to my channel

Dan’s marketing tech stack tips:

  • Engineers shouldn’t own the marketing tech stack pipeline
  • Planning is key
  • Use the same taxonomy in all your tools

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Will copying market leaders best practices grow your business? NO! You must apply best practices, design, copy, etc that are suited for your business to get real results. In this episode, Peep discusses why you shouldn’t rip off companies like Amazon and expect growth in your business.

Should you copy market leaders? Companies that are doing really really well should just copy what they're doing?

The answer is no you shouldn't!
So let's think about Amazon. So Amazon is doing pretty fine right? Conversion rate for Amazon Prime subscribers is 74 percent.

So e-commerce conversion rates so 74 percent of people who go
on Amazon Prime members will log in end up buying something that is insane. Right. So what is your conversion rate? Let's imagine it's 5 percent. So then Amazon's conversion rate is 15 times better than your conversion rate. So does that mean that Amazon's design is 15 times better than

your design or their copy on their website is 15 times better
than your copy? No. So if you just go and rip off their design their copy and

expect that you'll you'll now get Amazon style results you´r
naive. It doesn't work like that and it's the same thing with any competitor. You built the live chat software. Oh we just going to copy what income is doing just fine. We'll do the same doodles and ta-ta-ta... No that is not how the world works because what goes into somebody's success is there are so many other variables too like what Amazon has done since the 90s and that their brand and their relationship with their customers and like anybody was bought from Amazon before has had you know how many great experiences and there is just so much that goes into building a

successful company be it Amazon or intercom or you know whatever
it may be. And you just can't copy that by copying the super superficial elements from the website.

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Have you looked at your competition? They probably are very similar to you and that’s not helping you make more money. In this episode, Peep discusses why research and building your brand is key to stand out against the sea of sameness.

What do you do if what you say about your company on your website is exactly the same what everybody else is saying, like your competitors saying on the website. This is a very typical

case so the other day I was Googling or I was checking out
the competition for CXL institute. You know just going you know from one web site to another and evaluating the value propositions and seeing how they're presenting their you know their business. And basically my conclusion was in this market in this online learning space is the sea of sameness pretty much everybody is saying the exact same things about themselves. And this is probably very true about you as well.

Have you done research like looking into your next project
management software or invoicing billing accounting one of those you know it's a commodity that projects products most often what you see is that everybody is saying the exact same thing that some are doing a little better job than others maybe design or copy wise but essentially it boils down to the very same logical rational arguments. So what do you do you invest in your brand. Your brand is what's

going to going to set you apart.
Do you sell an idea. And if people are going to like that idea the story they're going to buy from you not these other guys even though on paper they can rationally. It's pretty much the same stuff but they're just like they're like how you position yourself like they'd like to buy into the idea that you really represent the idea that you hold in their

brain about you whenever you give people an emotional reason
to buy from you they'll go for that.

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Why is networking and building business relationships important for growth? It seems that most people who go to conferences or industry events don’t know how to network. How do you become better at networking?

What else can you do to like maybe you're seeing something I really want to talk to that person. The lakes don't really know how to start clarity of intention and having that intention be almost third party verified. Any schmuck can have an intention. I want to get laid. I want to get rich. I want to get skinny.

Hey guys I'm here with David
Gonzalez and David here runs this event called the Internet Marketing Party and there was just a 10 year anniversary. And David here is a super connector so he knows everybody. And I go to events and you probably go to events and I go to David's events every now and then and and I am my own events and I see people going to these events and failing at networking. You know there's a guy that just tries to sell you something.

And so like a lot of people
don't know how to network. So what would you say what's the best way to go about it. Well as we talked about for a second before we started there are people that have this process codified way better than I do because I'm more of an organic networker. I love networking and I hate the word like most even even people that don't like networking hate the word. So it's one of those weird things that when it's done Like nobody likes a salesperson right. but when someone's good at selling you you like buying from them right.

So I kind of feel like a good
networker somebody you enjoy conversing with. So if you know the art and the skill of conversation then you are automatically a good networker. It doesn't matter whether it's at an event with a thousand people or a small intimate dinner party with six people or even if you have one friend over to share with you on a podcast or a video blog like technically speaking you could argue that we're networking right now with our invisible in that moment that you're watching this you are no longer invisible you have become real It's like Schrodinger's kind of thing and I don't mean to sound metaphysical but at the end of the day you and me are having a conversation then that conversation is being transferred to to the viewer right now.

But if we were on at an event
technically speaking we're either going to step away from the crowd and just have a one on one like sometimes the speaker comes off the stage and the people crowd them. You'll notice sometimes if somebody is really prominent they can pull the speaker away from the crowd. You've seen that happen right. I give you. No I don't think it's like who's out there like that's the head of operations at Google and everybody's like oh like don't even try and listen. Like give them even if you're in a crowded room right.

So that leads to the idea of
like no no. When I say no your place I don't mean that as in like at the end of the day like we're all created great like equally like where else are astronauts on this spaceship Earth right. So like nobody's better than anybody and in the context of business sometimes it's worth giving credence and paying attention to pecking order meaning if you're brand new in an industry and you're when you have a vision and a goal and an idea of where you want to be. There's a giant gap between there in time and experience and energy and attention and education and intellectual property.

There's all the assets that you
could possibly amass to get you from there to there in a shorter amount of time. Like if you've got a lot of capital you can show up at an event. If you had one hundred million dollars liquid in your bank account you can show up to pretty much an event and don't have to pay the same kind of pecking order attention because they probably would like some of that money. Yeah yeah. So it's hard to go and connect to A-list celebrities but rather connect with people at your own level and grow together.

And you pay attention like you you care you put some thought in it. Yeah. So besides being a great you know bringing great and having conversations and just making a human connection what else can you do to like maybe you're seeing something I really want to talk to that person but like I don't really know how to start or go you've led right into the next thing which is I alluded to it but I don't think I did a good enough job of clarifying what it is it's clarity of intention and having that intention be almost third party verified because Any schmuck can have an intention.

I want to get laid.
I want to get rich. I want to get skinny like like so but like Do you have a trusted adviser whether it's a business partner a consultant a spouse. You can say hey my intention for this event that I'm going to is X do you where do you see the flaws in that. Well that's that's pretty big. What you're looking for. I think you should ask. You should go there with a bigger intention and like get clarity on your intention with a third party that you trust and respect to. Then when you're interacting with people the conversations are geared towards those intentions because sometimes you need to go deep to hit a certain intention.

But if you want more interviews

like this.
Subscribe to my channel.

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How to achieve more with less in content marketing

Find out how to reach more people and get the most value from your content marketing efforts with content recycling.

Join Paul Boag, UX Marketing Specialist @ Boagworks, live Wed. May 27 @ 11 AM CT.

Register here